ChatGPT on Buddhists versus the Vedas

What were some of the Buddhists' strongest arguments against the authority of the Vedas?

Buddhists, particularly the early Buddhists, challenged the authority of the Vedas on various grounds. Here are some of their strongest arguments:

1. Empiricism: Buddhists believed in the primacy of empirical knowledge gained through personal experience rather than relying on scriptural authority. They argued that the truth can be discovered through direct observation and personal experience rather than through the authority of the Vedas.
2. Rejection of Brahminical rituals: Early Buddhists rejected the Brahminical rituals and practices, which were heavily based on the Vedas. They believed that these rituals did not lead to liberation from suffering and were merely a means for the Brahmins to maintain their social status.
3. Universalism: Buddhists believed in the universality of their teachings and rejected the idea that the Vedas were meant only for a specific group of people, namely the Brahmins. They argued that their teachings were accessible to anyone regardless of their caste, class or gender.
4. Criticism of Brahminical worldview: Early Buddhists criticized the Brahminical worldview, which upheld the caste system and social hierarchy based on birth. They believed in the equality of all beings and rejected the notion of superiority based on birth or social status.
5. Non-theistic philosophy: Buddhism does not rely on the existence of a supreme being or a divine power to explain the nature of reality. Therefore, Buddhists rejected the Vedic notion of the existence of a supreme being as the ultimate authority.

In summary, Buddhists rejected the authority of the Vedas on the grounds of empiricism, rejection of Brahminical rituals, universalism, criticism of Brahminical worldview, and non-theistic philosophy.

How was authority in the Vedas reestablished?

The authority of the Vedas was reestablished through a number of factors over time. Here are some key developments:

1. Emergence of Hinduism: Over time, the various Vedic schools of thought were consolidated and integrated into what is known today as Hinduism. Hinduism emerged as a dominant religion in India, and the Vedas were regarded as the most sacred and authoritative scriptures.
2. Commentaries and interpretations: Commentaries and interpretations of the Vedas were produced by various scholars over time. These commentaries helped to establish the authority of the Vedas and to clarify their meanings for subsequent generations.
3. Philosophical systems: The Vedas were also incorporated into various philosophical systems, such as Vedanta, which sought to explain the nature of reality and the ultimate goal of human life. These philosophical systems helped to establish the Vedas as a foundational text for Indian philosophy and religion.
4. Rituals and practices: The Vedas were also used as the basis for various religious rituals and practices, such as yajnas, which were performed by Brahmins. These rituals and practices helped to reinforce the authority of the Vedas and to maintain their relevance in society.
5. Colonialism: During the colonial period, the Vedas were used as a symbol of India's cultural heritage and were promoted as a means of establishing a sense of national identity. This helped to further establish the authority of the Vedas in modern India.

In summary, the authority of the Vedas was reestablished through the emergence of Hinduism, commentaries and interpretations, philosophical systems, rituals and practices, and the use of the Vedas as a symbol of India's cultural heritage.

What were the most important philosophical arguments put forward by followers of the Vedas against the above-mentioned Buddhist arguments?

Followers of the Vedas put forward a number of philosophical arguments against the Buddhist criticisms of the authority of the Vedas. Here are some of the most important ones:

1. The concept of Shruti: The Vedas are believed to be divine revelations that were heard by ancient sages or rishis during states of deep meditation. This means that the Vedas are considered to be timeless and eternal, and their authority is based on their divine origin rather than on any empirical evidence or personal experience.
2. The concept of dharma: The Vedas provide a comprehensive system of dharma, which encompasses all aspects of human life, including social, moral, and spiritual duties. The concept of dharma is based on the idea of cosmic order or rta, which is maintained through the performance of various rituals and practices prescribed in the Vedas.
3. The concept of karma: The Vedas explain the law of karma, which states that all actions have consequences that determine the course of a person's life. This concept provides a moral framework for human behavior and reinforces the importance of following the prescribed rituals and practices in the Vedas.
4. The concept of Brahman: The Vedas describe Brahman as the ultimate reality, which is beyond the realm of empirical knowledge or personal experience. This concept provides a philosophical basis for the authority of the Vedas, as they are considered to be the means for realizing Brahman and attaining liberation from the cycle of birth and death.
5. Criticism of Buddhist metaphysics: Vedantic philosophers criticized Buddhist metaphysics, which denied the existence of a permanent self or soul. They argued that this view was inconsistent with the experience of self-awareness and that it led to nihilism and despair.

In summary, the philosophical arguments put forward by followers of the Vedas against the Buddhist criticisms of their authority include the concepts of Shruti, dharma, karma, Brahman, and criticism of Buddhist metaphysics. These arguments helped to establish the Vedas as a foundational text for Hindu philosophy and religion.

Consider this statement: "The Vedas are perfect." What were the specific Buddhist arguments against proposition? And what were the responses to the Buddhists in defending this proposition?

The statement "The Vedas are perfect" implies that the Vedas are without any flaws or errors and represent the ultimate truth. While many followers of the Vedas would agree with this proposition, Buddhists have offered specific arguments against it. Here are some of the Buddhist arguments against this proposition and the responses from the Vedantic philosophers defending it:

1. Impermanence: Buddhists believe in the impermanence of all phenomena, including the Vedas. They argue that the Vedas were composed by human authors at a specific time and place and are therefore subject to human limitations and errors.

Response: Vedantic philosophers agree that the Vedas were composed by human authors but argue that they are not the product of human intellect or imagination. They argue that the Vedas were divinely revealed and are therefore free from human errors or limitations.

2. Subjectivity: Buddhists argue that the Vedas are subjective and reflect the biases and cultural norms of the society in which they were composed. They argue that the Vedas are not universally applicable and that their authority is therefore limited.

Response: Vedantic philosophers argue that the Vedas represent the ultimate reality, which is beyond the limitations of any particular time, place, or culture. They argue that the Vedas are universally applicable and provide a comprehensive system of dharma that is relevant for all people, regardless of their cultural background or social status.

3. Lack of empirical evidence: Buddhists argue that the Vedas make claims that are not supported by empirical evidence and are therefore not credible. They argue that the authority of the Vedas should be based on reason and evidence rather than blind faith.

Response: Vedantic philosophers argue that the Vedas represent a higher form of knowledge that transcends empirical evidence and reason. They argue that the Vedas provide a means of direct perception of reality and that their authority should be accepted on the basis of this direct experience rather than on the basis of empirical evidence or reason.

In summary, Buddhists have offered arguments against the proposition that "The Vedas are perfect" on the basis of impermanence, subjectivity, and lack of empirical evidence. The responses from Vedantic philosophers have emphasized the divine origin of the Vedas, their universality, and their direct perception of reality as the basis for their authority.

Where can I go to get more information about this?

There are many resources available to learn more about the philosophical debates between Buddhists and followers of the Vedas. Here are a few suggestions:

1. Read primary texts: One of the best ways to gain a deeper understanding of these debates is to read the primary texts themselves. The Buddhist texts include the Tripitaka, which is the collection of the Buddha's teachings, and the Abhidharma, which provides a philosophical analysis of Buddhist doctrine. The Vedas include the Rigveda, Yajurveda, Samaveda, and Atharvaveda, as well as the Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, and other Hindu scriptures.
2. Consult secondary sources: There are many books and articles written by scholars and experts that provide analysis and commentary on the philosophical debates between Buddhists and followers of the Vedas. Some recommended books include "The Essentials of Buddhist Philosophy" by Junjiro Takakusu and "The Upanishads" translated by Eknath Easwaran.
3. Attend lectures or seminars: Many universities and cultural organizations offer lectures and seminars on these topics. Attending these events can provide an opportunity to learn from experts and engage in discussions with other interested individuals.
4. Explore online resources: There are many online resources available that provide information and analysis on these topics. Some recommended websites include the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies.

By exploring these resources, you can gain a deeper understanding of the philosophical debates between Buddhists and followers of the Vedas and develop your own perspective on these complex and nuanced topics.

Neo-Ahteistic Attacks on ISKCON

by Damodara Das (BVKS)

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I thought it is wise to publish this small excerpt from a larger work that refuted the "Women Diksa Guru" book of H G Kaunteya Prabhu. The arguments herein are relevant to the current misconception that he is trying to propagate through his various writings. He feels that the endeavors of sincere followers of Srila Prabhupada who are trying to propagate his varnasrama mission are actually bringing smarta considerations and are thus smartas in the garb of Srila Prabhupada's followers. He thus sees it as an attack of smartas on ISKCON. He has thus started a mission against them to undo that effect. 

I am posting this excerpt only with an intention to convey the proper understanding and thus try to be an instrument of the parampara in try saving those sincere and dedicated devotee souls who may become influenced by the Neo-Atheistic attacks of Kaunteya Prabhu and like. Others may take it or leave it. 

I know that there will hardly be any effect either in favor or against him by this small writing because factually speaking the fight is not of ascertaining what is the right philosophy or what is the right thing. It has taken more a shape of a political game and thus the discussion only reaches at the most up to the level of vitanda (sophistry). Therefore, I am not enthusiastic to enter into a thorough discussion unless it is an official one and has some concrete results attached to it. Today is the age of internet in which anyone can speak anything and propagate and thus mostly it is a number game to decide who is able to influence the most people. Writing something doesn't take much time but to defend it requires a constant endeavor and time which is worthless if there is no concrete result attached to it. 

Therefore, I am open to discuss everything with H G Kaunteya Prabhu, threadbare, if that is arranged on an official and an open-to-public platform. Otherwise, Hare Krishna.

Contents of this excerpt are applicable even today to Kaunteya Prabhu and the like, in fact, it has only become more so. After reading this section, you can just pick up his other books that came out after this (i.e. after sep 2020). You will find more and more examples of this mentality or neo-atheistic outlook. 

In short, H G Kaunteya Prabhu is very upset if some sincere followers of Srila Prabhupada try consult Sri Vaisnavas for certain issues and thus he calls them Neo-smartas. Of course in utmost disgust, anger,  and envy he calls even Sri Vaisnavas smartas although Prabhupada never called them that way. However, what would you call him (and the likes) who try to judge the statements of Srila Prabhupada's books by consulting the rascal scholars of mundane universities? That is why I have kept the title of this article as "Neo-Aheistic Attacks ISKCON." Many of these scholars are beef eaters, wine drinkers, etc. and many belong to the universities that are well known for "debunking" Vedic culture as mundane, sastras as mere some mythical books, and so on.

When Srila Prabhupada says women are less intelligent, these greatly intelligent devotees like H G Kaunteya Prabhu show evidence from modern scientists and statisticians to show that Srila Prabhupada's statement cannot be true. Now, because they cannot outrightly say that Prabhupada was wrong so they try to interpret his statement in which they look so foolish. 

For instance, Srila Prabhuapada, to establish that women are less intelligent, gives as an example that "Up to date in the history there is not a single woman  who  is  a  great  scientist  or  great  philosopher."  Answering to this, Kaunteya Prabhu says in his recent book on Racism and Sexism in SP's books—

In  the  conversation  we  quoted above,  Srila  Prabhupada  said,  "Where  is  woman philosopher,  mathematician,  scientist?  Not  a  single." (Morning Walk, Bombay, 9 Jan 1977) This is demonstrably incorrect. 

And a little later he interprets Srila Prabhupada by saying, 

So, Srila Prabhupada did acknowledge that there have  been  women  scientists  and  philosophers;  but  they weren't  "great"  -  whatever  that  means.  (p.415)

So he gives much more credence to modern scientific data statistics than to Srila Prabhupada. One should beware from getting influenced by this subtle poisonous tendency. 

An Excerpt from a short refutation to Women Diksa Guru book of H G Kaunteya Prabhu

Ø  p.237-9 —Wearing sacred thread by women was a part of Vedic Culture

The  authors, showing this icon of Pāravatī sculpted during Chola Kingdom, say,

“the sculpture was made by humans living in South India more than a thousand years ago; it shows that their culture was familiar – and apparently comfortable – with the idea of females wearing the sacred thread.”

-          This icon is also almost naked (bare chested). Does that mean that women in Chola Kingdom were living naked and that the culture was “apparently comfortable” with the idea of females’ being naked. We may get the idea of authors’ level of intelligence from this.

-          Mānasāra, the renowned text on śilpa-śāstra, does mention sacred thread for male deities (50.10) but doesn’t do so for any of the female deities.[1]

-          There is old commentary by a śilpa-śāstrī V. Venkatasubrahmaniya Sastri, who published a book in Tamil with Mānasāra verses presented in Grantha-lipi. It says that it is probable what appears to be a sacred thread on those iconographs are actually other ornaments such as Vaikakṣika that is adorned in a sacred thread fashion. However, this point is still under research and those who want more information and the book scans can contact us.

-          Besides this, even if we accept that the icon wears sacred thread, it is worth considering that the deity is that of Pāravatī, a goddess, not a human of mortal world. It is foolish to conclude what applies to gods applies to humans also

-          How the people of that time took it? Simple. People understood the fact that “Pāravatī can wear it, we can’t. what is applicable to gods is not to be imitated by humans.”

 

Ø  Ahteism in the authors’ works exposed

·         Just have a short look-back. In the first part, the author said that the sacred thread was not a fixed part of brahmana’s attire and in the latter part they say that even the women wore sacred thread showing Pāravatī idol wearing sacred thread.

·         Now what’s going on here? If the sacred thread is not an age old tradition then it shows that the authors think Pāravatī is not from age-old times but is of recent origin.

·         However, śāstras say that Pāravatī is jagad-dhātrī, the creator and maintainer of universe

·         This brings us to the platform of atheism which declares that Pāravatī etc. icons as mere imaginations that different cultures depict in their own ways as per the culture they are living in.

·         This is contamination resulting from secular atheistic scholarly pursuit

·         They opine that because in the Chola Kingdom women wore sacred threads, they depict Pāravatī wearing sacred thread. Sculptors from other cultures depict her in a different way. Thus we can get an idea of a culture by looking at the icons that are sculpted by the people of that culture.

·         Some of them use such iconography to prove that women did not cover breasts in Vedic culture.

·         However, our devotee friends (the  authors), tyring to support FDGs, borrowed arguments from the canons of such atheistic scholars and thus ended up with atheism.

·         Readers may be reminded of a similar approach by the propounder of Krishna West, who says that Srila Prabhupada depicted Lord Krishna according to Indian culture he was brought up in. He opines that Krishna did not wear dhoti and that dhoti is not necessarily a Vedic dress.[2]

·         Besides this, almost all secular atheistic scholars repeatedly use one trick to establish liberalism: quoting one or two exceptional examples from whole Vedic canon to establish them as norm. For instance they give examples of Gārgī and Maitreyī to establish that all women in Vedic culture got upanayana, underwent brahmacarya, and studied the Vedas. What we know now from our acharyas like Śankarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, and our known tradition was actually instituted by evil minded, male dominated, brahmanas, who created many dharma-sastras like Manu-samhita. (see p.240 for such a conclusion reached by the  authors).

·         However, the vedic method (SB 10.33.31) says,

“The statements of the Lord’s empowered servants are always true, and the acts they perform are exemplary when consistent with those statements. Therefore one who is intelligent should carry out their instructions.”[3]

·         Thus, proper method to know anything about the Vedic Culture is to approach those who have lived it and believe in its eternity, who have unflinching faith in guru-sādhu-śāstra.

For those who want to see the full version of the book against FDG refuting the works of Kaunteya Prabhu and the like on FDG, you can order the below book. 

Contact, Sridhar Srinivasa Das: +91 7373089272

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[1] Chapter 50 belongs to male deities, Chapter 54 to female deities

[2] <insert link some Krishna West material or lecture for these points>

[3] īśvarāṇāṁ vacaḥ satyaṁ  tathaivācaritaṁ kvacit | teṣāṁ yat sva-vaco-yuktaṁ  buddhimāṁs tat samācaret ||