Can Westerners be Gurus?
----------------------------------------------------------------
by Damodara Dasa (BVKS)
Note: The majority of the content of this essay is taken from His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's Brahmana O Vaisnava book. Anyone who wants to study this matter in great detail with volumes of references can read this book available at http://f42013k2.bget.ru/brahmana-and-vaisnava.pdf
This article is written in reply to an anonymus person (alias: S.Kumar) who arogantly challenged ISKCON's western bodied gurus and notoriously goes on putting his baseless offensive arguments and texts in comment section of vaious youtube videos of ISKCON gurus.
However, this article is not designed solely to reply to him. I know that this may be a repeated question in minds of people and thus needs some analyzed sastric answer in order to clear doubts and thus enable people to avoid Vaisnava-aparadhas.
In this article, I have called such arguers the purva-paksa. When the purva-paksa is asked about the evidence for their claim, they present a few verses from Hari-bhakti-vilasa (a Gaudiya Vaisnava smrti sastra) and base their argument on them. Here is one of these verses:
atha visesatah guror laksanani
avadatanvaya-suddhah svocitacara-tat-parah
asrami krodha-rahito veda-vit sarva-sastra-vit (HBV 1.38)
Now begins description of guru’s symptoms in detail:
“A genuine spiritual master is saintly, born in a pure family lineage, diligent in performing his prescribed duties, a follower of the varnasrama system, devoid of anger, learned in the Vedas and scriptures.”
An important point to be noted from the commentary about the word avadatanvaya:
avadatah suddhah patitya-dosa-rahitah anvayah vamsah yasya
Whose vamsa or lineage is avadata meaning pure, i.e. devoid of any patitya-dosa (fault of anyone committing sinful acts and thus falling down).
So, if the purva-paksa claims that being born in such a pure lineage is a must qualification for being a guru then it is almost impossible in today’s age to have any guru at all; either from the west or from India. This is because today almost all the lineages are not only impure but are completely broken.
Thus, before blindly accepting this claim based on the purva-paksa’s understanding of sastras, we must look into the depth of what such a lineage means.
First of all, a lineage or vamsa means family lineage starting from Lord Brahma till the person who is under consideration for being a guru.
Now, what is meant by patitya-dosa or fault of being sinful?
Although expecting a very high standard from people of higher classes (brahmanas and ksatriyas) it is still expected that due to force of time and material nature, they may sometimes commit sinful acts either out of a situation or being captivated by Maya. Thus, there is a system of prayascitta by which they will remove the sin accumulated due to the committed sinful act and thus purify themselves. Till the time they have not removed the accumulated sin they are called patita (fallen) or pataka-dusita (tainted by sin). Sins are also committed without knowledge, even in performing one’s daily compulsory activities like cooking, cleaning, walking, etc. Such sins are removed by performing nitya-karmas (daily compulsory duties) like sandhya-vandanam, agnihotra, etc. Thus, if a person doesn’t everyday perform his nitya-karmas then he becomes patita or pataka-dusita.
To give an idea of what can make a person sinful I shall give an example. Out of four great sins (mahapatakas) one is illicit sex. Sex outside of marriage is illicit sex. Even inside marriage, sex can be illicit if it is not performed according to the rules of sastra, or not for the purpose of begetting a child. Sex using natural or artificial contraceptives is sinful and makes a person patita or pataka-dusita. Besides illicit sex, there are many other sinful acts that are considered great sins. One such great sin is associating with those who are committing great sins. Besides mahapatakas, there also are atipatakas, upapatakas, etc. sinful activities.
Now, what happens, if someone who has been afflicted with sin and has not yet become pure by performing prayascitta begets a child in the womb of his wife?
The child will be contaminated with sin from birth and thus cannot be considered as that of the same varna as his father’s lineage. This action has just tainted the vamsa by sinful birth. After becoming a grhastha, if such a child begets children, they also cannot be strictly called belonging to the varna of that vamsa. Thus, the link with the vamsa is broken although the surname, gotra name, etc. may go on in general social practice.
Therefore, it is said in the Yajnavalkya Smrti (1.77) that “a wife should wait for her husband, who is tainted with a great sin, to get purified of it.” Then, in the next verse, it gives the reason: “because to propagate the pure vamsa is the main reason for accepting a wife.” Then, it goes on to describe rules for sex life with one’s own wife according to dharma.
Besides this, as per SB 7.11.13, while begetting a child one must perform garbhadhana-samskara. Then only the child begotten will be of the same varna as that of the varna of lineage. Otherwise, the child born will have a sinful taint on his lineage. With such children, lineage cannot go on for long as per sastra. Although one may perform garbhadhana-samskara wanting to beget a good child in one’s wife, if one is engaged in illicit sex (using contraceptive methods or otherwise) at other times, there is no meaning to garbhadhana-samskara; it is as if not done.
Similarly, the wife’s being pure is one of the main considerations in propagating pure lineage, as is said in the Bhagavad-gita: strisu dustasu varsneya jayate varnasankara. If the wife has committed adultery in any form before or after marriage, then the vamsa is tainted with sin by the children born of such a tainted wife.
Thus, performing the garbhadhana-samskara and parents’ being pure of sins is a must in order to get a pure son to keep the lineage pure. Although a lineage may start getting tainted like this still, for a few generations, there are chances to bring it back to normal by performing certain procedures, according to Manu Smrti.
Now, to ensure the absence of all of the above conditions that destroy a lineage, there is no other alternative than to blindly believe in the words of parents. Any lie or misinformation will go on propagating a broken lineage in the name of a pure one. Even in the time of Yudhisthira Maharaja, it became difficult to decide varna based on pure lineage system due to the above reasons as is accepted by Yudhisthira Maharaja himself (Mahabharata, Vana-parva 180.31-32):
jatir atra maha-sarpa manusyatve maha-mate | sankarat sarva-varnanam duspariksyeti me matih ||
“Maharaja Yudhisthira said to Nahusa: O broad-minded great serpent, because of the mixture of all different varnas, it is extremely difficult to determine an individual's lineage. This is my opinion.”
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakua explains the above verses as follows:
It is especially difficult to ascertain whether a given person is born from a brahmana, ksatriya, or other lineage father. Other than trusting a person's words there is no way to investigate his lineage. The lineage of those belonging to brahmana and other dynasties coming from Lord Brahma and said to be purely descending to the present day cannot be known in truth without definitely validating every person in the line. In his commentary on the above verse, Sri Nilakantha, the commentator on the Mahabharata, quotes from the Vedas as follows:
na caitad vidmo brahmanah smo vayam abrahmana veti
“We do not know whether we are brahmanas or non-brahmanas.” Such doubts arose in the hearts of the truthful sages.
So, what to speak of today when, for generations, illicit sex and other sinful activities have become normal in all lineages, proper garbhadhana-samskara has become almost completely absent, and women are roaming outside their houses studying and doing whatnot with boys other than their husbands, both before and after marriage. Thus, today it is almost impossible to find a pure lineage. Those lineages that go on in the name of brahmana etc. are usually not pure and sometimes in name only, if we look from sastric perspective.
However, according to the claim of the purva-paksa, being born in a pure lineage is a must condition for being a guru. This will lead us to the conclusion that not only westerners but even the Indians cannot be gurus although they may have taken birth in a socially famous high-class brahmin lineage and are Vaisnavas. Therefore, no one can be a guru, and thus, no one can be an initiated Vaisnava in the current age. Is this conclusion correct?
To answer this, we should put to test the claim of the purva-paksa. I would question: is the condition of being born in a pure lineage a must condition for being a guru? Let us see what the sastra says. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura quotes Padma Purana thus:
sat karma nipuno vipro mantra tantra visaradah | avaisnavo gurur na syad vaisnavah svapaco guruh || maha kulaprasuto’pi sarva yajnesu diksitah | sahasra sakha dhyayi ca na guruh syad avaisnavah || vipra ksatriya vaisyas ca guravah sudra janmanam | sudras ca guravas tesam trayanam bhagavat priyah ||
“A brahmana who is expert in the six works and also in mantras and the tantra should not be selected as a guru if he is not a vaisnava. Even if a Vaisnava comes from a family of dog-eaters he should be accepted as a guru.
“Even if one is born in the best of families, even if one is initiated in all the sacrifices and is learned in all the branches of the Vedas, if he is a non-vaisnava he is unable to become a guru.
“Generally, brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas should be the gurus of sudras. However, sudras who are dear to the Lord can also be the gurus of these three castes.” (Amrta-pravaha Bhasya of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Madhya 8.128)
The above quotes establish that the condition of being born in brahmana lineage is not a must one because the Padma-purana says that one born even in a family of dog-eaters can become a guru if he is a Vaisnava. This is exactly in line with what Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says in the Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya 8.128. Purva-paksa is duty-bound to accept this quote because it claims to be a follower of Lord Caitanya. Besides this, Hari-bhakti-vilasa, 10th Vilasa, has similar statements that establish the fact that birth in a particular lineage is not a must condition for being a guru.
One may argue that whatever symptoms of guru mentioned in chapter 1 of Hari-bhakti-vilasa are to be taken as a must and in absence of any of them one cannot be a guru.
Our answer: if that is the case then a few verses later (HBV 1.44 quoting from Agastya-samhita) one of the conditions put forward for being a guru is being a grhastha (grhastha gurur ucyate). If taken literally then all the bonafide Vaisnava sampradayas (as well as Sankara sampradaya) are transgressing this law of sastras, because they all have, to date, sannyasi gurus. Even sastras have many examples of and precepts regarding sannyasis being gurus. Therefore, it is to be accepted that not all the symptoms mentioned in Hari-bhakti-vilasa for being a guru are the must ones. But, they are the desirable ones. However, among them, there are must symptoms also. For instance, in the same chapter Sanatana Gosvami emphasizes the symptom of being a Vaisnava is a must symptom for being a guru:
maha kulaprasuto’pi sarva yajnesu diksitah | sahasra sakha dhyayi ca na guruh syada vaisnavah ||
“Even if one is born in the best of families, even if one is initiated in all the sacrifices and is learned in all the branches of the Vedas, if he is a non-vaisnava he is unable to become a guru.
Commentary: ata evoktam pancaratre -- avaisnavopadistena mantrena nirayam vrajet | punasca vidhina samyag grahayed vaisnavad guroh ||
Therefore, it is said in the pancaratra – “By the mantra received from a guru who is not a Vaisnava one goes to hell. So one should again get himself properly initiated by a Vaisnava guru.”
In the commentary, Sanatana Gosvami further clarifies that what it means to be a Vaisnava is detailed in the 10th Vilasa.
Then one should ask why at all the condition of being born in a certain family lineage has been described?
Our answer: Actually, the condition of being a brahmana is very necessary for being a guru or you can say it is almost a must condition. However, the condition of being born in brahmana lineage is not a must one. Being born in a brahmana lineage and being a brahmana is not the same, just as being born in a doctor’s family and being a doctor is not the same. It is because one born in a pure brahmana lineage will almost certainly have the potential of developing symptoms of a brahmana and thus be a brahmana, Sanatana Gosvami and Vedic literature mention the condition of a guru being born in a brahmana lineage. See Bg 6.42, purport where Srila Prabhupada endorses being born in such a family lineage and supports such families’ being guru-families.
As proved earlier, currently it is not possible to find a brahmana lineage. Does that mean it is not possible to get a brahmana?
No. that is not the case. As per sastras, when the proper lineages are not in place due to circumstances, one’s varna is to be identified by observing one’s symptoms. For being a brahmana one needs to have symptoms of a brahmana. If one is born in a brahmana lineage but doesn’t have brahminical symptoms, he is not to be given a brahminical occupation but is to be engaged according to his symptoms. Srimad Bhagavatam 7.11.35 establishes this as follows:
yasya yal laksanam proktam pumso varnabhivyanjakam | yad anyatrapi drsyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiset ||
If one shows the symptoms of being a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, or sudra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification.
Sridhara Svami: sama-damadibhir eva brahmanadi-vyavaharah mukhyah na jati-matrad ity-aha yasyeti | yadyadi anyatra varnantare ‘pi drsyeta tad-varnantaram nimittenaiva varnena vinirdiset | na taj-jati nimittena ityarthah |
This sloka is spoken to establish the point that who should be called by which varna (brahmana etc.) and who should not be called so, is to be decided by sama-dama etc. symptoms and not merely by lineage. If one finds symptoms of another varna in a person born in one varna, he should be called by the varna denoted by his symptoms, not by the varna he is born in.
Of course, the practical application of this principle will depend on the social condition. If the varnasrama society is fully in place, then one or two such exceptions may not be entertained in order to safeguard the already-in-place varna-by-birth system, which is practical when everyone is performing their own dharma and samskaras are in place. As it is said in the Yajnavalkya Smrti (1.156) one should not perform even dharma that may unnecessarily disturb the already set varnasrama order. The same is exemplified by Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad-gita 3.17-25 verses. In such societies, exceptions are not very often entertained, especially the ones which require upgrading one’s social position to a higher status, because failure in that can cause havoc in the society. For instance, degrading a brahmana to a lower status, if found not up to the mark of dharma, can be entertained and was done. But upgrading a sudra to a higher varna status would face more resistance even though it may be lawful. This may be one of the social reasons why Karna was not allowed by Dronacarya to be his student.
However, when the whole social order is topsy-turvy then what should be the course of action?
Today there is no pure lineage left. No one can say that he is a brahmana, or a ksatriya, or a vaisya, or even a sudra. No one knows to what varna his parents really belong to. This verse (SB 7.11.35) gives a direction about what to do in such a condition. And why not. After all, Srimad Bhagavatam is specifically meant to give enlightened directions to the people of kali-yuga whose all good sight and direction are lost (kalau nasta-drsam esa puranako adhunoditah). Sukadeva (of Nimbarka-sampradaya) writes in his siddhanta-pradipa commentary to the verse under discussion (SB 7.11.35):
yadyapi prajapati pravartita varna mukhyas tathapi kala-krta-sankara-dosatas tan-niscayabhave satyadi laksanena tat-tat kule brahmanadi niscayah kartavyah | anya-varna-laksanam drsyeta tarhi tena laksanenapi tam varnitam vijaniyad ityaha – yasyeti | yasya pumsah varnabhivyanjakam yal-laksanam yadyadi anyatra varnantare ‘pi drsyeta tad-varnantaram tenaiva laksanadi-nimittena vinirdiset | “na vayam visno brahmanah smo ‘brahmana va ye yajamahe” iti srutih | “jatir-atra mahasarpa manusyatve mahamate, sankarat sarva-varnanam duspariksya iti me matih. tasmac-chilam pradhanestam vidur vai sattva-darsinah” iti smrtis-catranusandheya |
Although the varnas coming down from Lord Brahma (by lineage) are prime in consideration, still, when it is not possible to decide who belongs to which lineage due to faults of the mixture in them caused by the influence of time, in those lineages one should decide brahmana, etc. by the medium of symptoms. If one sees symptoms of another varna then he should be known to belong to the varna denoted by the symptoms. To establish this point this sloka, which starts with the word yasya, is spoken. Yasya means of that person. If the symptoms that denote particular varna are seen in a person born in another varna then the varna of that person is to be decided by the symptoms. In this regard following statements should be considered: a statement from the sruti “O Visnu! We, who are performing this yajna, do not know whether we are brahmanas or non-brahmanas.” Statement from a smrti* “Maharaja Yudhisthira said to Nahusa: O broad-minded great serpent, because of the mixture of all the varnas, it is extremely difficult to determine an individual's lineage. This is my opinion. Therefore, those who are learned knower of the truth know sila or behavior to be the prime consideration.”
* The smrti quoted here is Mahabharata, vana-parva, 180.31
Thus, it is established that although currently, it is almost impossible to find a pure brahmana lineage, still it is possible to find a brahmana. And that brahmana could be born in any so-called family line. Although a lineage may be socially famous as a brahmana lineage, sons with mleccha symptoms may take birth there. And although a lineage may be socially famous as a mleccha lineage, sons with brahmana symptoms may take birth there. This is the current condition. Therefore, one can get brahmanas from persons who are mleccha in the background by birth. And one can get mlechhas from persons who are brahmana in the background by birth. Thus, even the westerners can be brahmanas if they have brahminical symptoms.
To sum up what we learned till now:
To be a guru, being an elevated Vaisnava with proper conduct, ideology, and speech, strictly in line with guru-sadhu-sastra, is the prime pre-requisite condition.
To be a brahmana by symptoms is also very necessary, but being born in a pure brahmana lineage is not a must condition.
Being born in a brahmana lineage and being a brahmana is not the same thing. Varna is to be ascertained by one’s symptoms and not merely by birth.
Also, currently, it is almost impossible to find a pure lineage due to almost all lineages being tainted with sinful births from sinful parents and discontinuation of the garbhadhana-samskara. However, socially, the names of the lineages go on as being identified as a brahmana, etc.
Thus currently, one may be born in a so-called brahmana lineage and have symptoms of a mleccha and thus be a mleccha. Similarly, one may be born in a so-called mleccha lineage and have symptoms of a brahmana and thus be a brahmana.
Therefore, if one is an elevated Vaisnava with pre-requisite symptoms needed for being a guru and one also has the symptoms of a brahmana, then one can be appointed as a guru although one may have taken birth in a lineage socially famous as a non-brahmana lineage (including mlechha lineage to which most of the westerners belong). Such a guru is considered first class.
One may argue that in the verses quoted below (HBV 1.47-52) Sanatana Gosvami mandates that if a brahmana Vaisnava guru is present then a ksatriya, vaisya, or a sudra Vaisnava cannot be a guru.
sri-narada-pancaratre sri-bhagavan-narada-samvade
brahmanah sarva-kala-jnah kuryat sarvesv anugraham | tad-abhavad dvija-srestha santatma bhagavan-mayah || bhavitatma ca sarva-jnah sastra-jnah sat-kriya-parah | siddhi-traya-samayukta acaryatve 'bhisecitah || ksatra-vit-sudra-jatinam ksatriyo 'nugrahe ksamah | ksatriyasyapi ca guror abhavad idrso yadi || vaisyah syat tena karyas ca dvaye nityam anugrahah | sajatiyena sudrena tadrsena maha-mate || anugrahabhisekau ca karyau sudrasya sarvada ||50||
kim ca
varnottame 'tha ca gurau sati ya visrute 'pi ca | sva-desato 'tha vanyatra nedam karyam subharthina || vidyamane tu yah kuryat yatra tatra viparyayam | tasyehamutra nasah syat tasmac chastroktam acaret | ksatra-vit-sudra-jatiyah pratilomyam na diksayet ||
In Sri Narada-pancaratra the Supreme Personality of Godhead explains to Sri Narada:
“O dvija-sretstha, an exalted brahmana who knows five types of knowledge mentioned in the pancaratras can initiate everyone and be a guru. In the absence of such a highly qualified person a ksatriya can be a guru. Such a ksatriya should be peaceful at heart, devoted to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, pure in consciousness, knowing all injunctions related to diksa (initiations), learned in the scriptures, devoted to pious deeds, and endowed with three siddhis related to mantra, guru, and devata by the medium of purascarana, etc. And he should also have been coronated or appointed by his own spiritual master in the eligibility of giving initiations i.e. on the post of a guru. Such a ksatriya guru is eligible to give initiations to the ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras.
“In the absence of such a ksatriya spiritual master a vaisya spiritual master with above qualities can be a guru and give initiations to the vaisyas and sudras. In the absence of such a vaisya spiritual master, a sudra may be a guru and give initiations to sudras.”
It is also said:
“If a brahmana guru is present in one's own area or is heard to be present nearby, a person of lower varna who desires auspiciousness should not become a guru and give initiations. One who doesn’t pay heed to this sastric instruction and starts giving initiations here and there although a higher varna guru is present meets with destruction in this life and the next. Thus, ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras should not initiate the people of varna higher than their own.”
Let us see the above verses in the light of what we have learned in this article so far, i.e. currently there almost are no brahmana, etc. lineages present, and that brahmana, etc. are to be ascertained by symptoms.
Just by the point that there almost is no pure brahmana etc. lineages present today, the above verses become inapplicable today. One doesn’t go to hell or meet with destruction by initiating a person born in a socially famous higher lineage which is not actually a higher lineage.
However, if we see it with an understanding that a brahmana is ascertained by symptoms, then the above verses are still applicable today. Remember that only the lineage considerations are broken today, not the considerations of an actual brahmana, etc. based on symptoms.
Then, these verses would mean that the best guru is the one who is an elevated Vaisnava, who has also been identified and designated as a brahmana by symptoms, and who is a knower of five types of knowledge discussed in the pancaratras. He can initiate everyone, i.e. devotees with symptoms of all varnas. In the absence of such a guru, an elevated Vaisnava who is identified as a ksatriya by symptoms can be a guru if he has all the symptoms mentioned in the above slokas. Such a ksatriya guru can initiate devotees with symptoms of a ksatriya, vaisya, or a sudra. And so on...
This analysis seems to throw some light on the matter of who should be a guru and what symptoms to look for in a guru. This may prove to be good guidance for the ISKCON society in improving its guru system if taken positively. Of course, one will need to go into more details from other pancaratra literature like the Bharadvaja-samhita, Satvata-samhita, etc. in order to practically apply it. But that is worth it.
Final Words
The facts established in this article are not with an attitude of putting down the system of designating varnas and roles in varnasrama society through vamsa, kula, etc., but with the intention of helping it to revive its glory. Nor is it our intention to defame current brahmana etc. lineages or kulas.
I personally understand that the system of varna by birth in a lineage is very practical in large, nationwide implementations. Such a system is also stable, generation after generation, if the people born in lineages truly follow the injunctions meant for them (sva-dharma) mentioned in sastras and coming down in the form of kula-dharma. I also consider that in the future, to re-establish nationwide varnasrama, the system of varna by birth in a lineage may be necessary.
However, I also regret that the lineages are broken and thus this varna by birth in a lineage cannot be continued at the present moment. What needs to be done is a thorough overhauling of the society and the samskaras put back into place. The lineages have to be revived and then, after a few generations, such a system can be implemented again.
So, my appeal to the current socially famous brahmana, etc. lineages in India is that they help themselves in this process and revive the age-old glory of their lineages. In Vedic times reviving a lineage was possible by the process mentioned in Manu Smrti but that was applicable only for the lineages that were contaminated for a few generations. That procedure is quite vigorous and needs persons from pure lineages to establish it. So, today it is impossible. There are three paths for elevation: Karma-marga, jnana-marga, and bhakti-marga. The procedure mentioned in Manu Smrti mostly constitutes karma-marga, which is impossible today. The jnana-marga is also impossible today, specifically because only those who have completed their varnasrama duties and have become purified are eligible to enter jnana-marga. However, the bhakti-marga, and especially the path of Harinama-sankirtana has no pre-requisites. Everyone is eligible to enter it, and it is the easiest and sublime path of purification for all. And above all, it is the process recommended for today’s age in all the sastras—srutis as well as smrtis. By this process, any amount of previously accumulated sins are destroyed very quickly and it very quickly elevates a person from any status of life to the highest spiritual status. As is said in the Visnu-purana:
aprarabdha-phalam papam kutam bijam phalonmukham | kramenaiva praliyeta visnu-bhakti-ratatmanam||
For those who are engaged in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all sinful reactions, whether fructified, in the stock, or in the form of a seed, gradually vanish.
Thus, the lineages which are tainted with many sins will also certainly get purified to the highest status and revive their glory. Such a revival movement is what I look forward to.
At the same time, we must understand that reviving the glory of a lineage is not at all the goal of human life and not going to even liberate oneself from birth, death, old age, and disease, what to speak of achieving the real goal of human life—love of Krishna. So, it is better to concentrate on our Krishna consciousness and we will see that to whatever lineage or even varna) based on our qualities) we belong to, by the process of surrender to Krishna we will go back home back to Godhead, as we see in the last verse I have quoted below. However, to take shelter of Lord Krishna one needs to take shelter of His representative devotee who acts as a guru and trains his disciple in the process of surrender. Because the question was raised on who should be that guru, I had to write this article to throw some light on this subject matter.
To end the article I shall repeat the words of Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad-gita 9.32-3, as my appeal to the current high-class lineages:
mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah | striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te 'pi yanti param gatim || kim punar brahmanah punya bhakta rajarsayas tatha | anityam asukham lokam imam prapya bhajasva mam||
O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaisyas and sudras—can attain the supreme destination. How much more this is so of the righteous brahmanas, the devotees, and the saintly kings. Therefore, having come to this temporary, miserable world, engage in loving service unto Me.
To COMMENT, LOGIN to your google account and then you can comment on this article.
ReplyDeleteAnonymus comments are OFF as it was giving trouble to some people due to browser cookie settings.
Also, I have not kept comment in the moderation mode, so what you post will immediately reflect in the comment section. If it doesn't then email me at damodara.bvks@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteNOTICE:
If a comment has bad language or tone, then I am dutybound to either delete it or edit it to keep just the proper matter required for discussion. I request you not to force me to do so.
Haribol
ReplyDeleteI'm S.Kumar here, please publish this as refutation to your above article.
atha visheshatah shri-guror lakshanani - mantra-muktavalyam avadatanvaya-shuddhah - svocitacara-tat-parah ashrami krodha-rahito veda-vit sarva-shastra-vit [ HBV 1.38 ]
Commentary by Śrīla Sānatana Gosvāmīpāda named Śrī Dig-darśinī-ṭīkā –
çäbde pare ca niñëätam [bhä.pu. 11.3.21] ity ädinä präk sämänyataù saìkñepeëa guru-lakñaëäny ullikhyädhunä täny eva viçeñato vistärya | kià vä, pürvaà gurv-äçrayaëänuñaìgena gauëatayä likhitvedänéà mukhyatvena likhati avadätety ädinä | avadätaù çuddhaù pätityädi-doña-rahito’nvayo vaàço yasya, sad-vaàça-jäta ity arthaù | çuddhaù svayam api pätityädi-doña-rahitaù | ||38||
“The guru has to be expert in both śabda-brahma (i.e. scriptures’ theoretical knowledge) and also in para-brahma (i.e. endowed with practical realization of Absolute Truth)” – SB 11.3.21 – Through this verse, the general characteristics of a guru have been described earlier (i.e. in HBV 1.32) in a synopsis and now they are being elaborated futher with special emphasis. Moreover, it should be understood that those characteristics were depicted earlier in a secondary sense while describing the topic of taking the shelter of guru. But now, they are being written primarily. ‘Blameless’ (avadātaḥ) and ‘pure’ (śuddhaḥ) indicate he whose ancestral lineage has remained devoid of any fault and fall-down (i.e. fall-down from one’s ācāra and vicāra suiting to one’s varna) (‘pātityādi-doṣa-rahito’nvayo vaṁ śo yasya’) – which indicates he who is born of a good & noble family (‘sad-vaṁ śa-jāta ity arthaḥ’). He should also be pure himself which means he should be devoid of the fault of fall-down (fall-down from one’s varna and aśrama as explained earlier) (śuddhaḥ svayam api pātityādi doṣa-rahitaḥ).”
Hence it is clear that diksa Guru ( giver of Vedic mantras ) should come from a proper lineage, devoid of faults. To say that there is no such Guru or brahmana coming from proper family Lineage is only your assumption. I only see it as an excuse for those on the lower order to justify themselves in becoming guru thus overriding the scriptural laws with an intent to misled. Why would the goswmais painstakingly complied all these, if this wasthe case that there will no longer be any Brahmanas from proper lineage. This is a false assumption.
Brahmana by qualities? Birth is ignored ?
ReplyDeleteद्य इह रमणीयचरणा अभ्याशो ह यत्ते रमणीयां योनिमापद्येरन्ब्राह्मणयोनिं वा क्षत्रिययोनिं वा वैश्ययोनिं वाथ य इह कपूयचरणा अभ्याशो ह यत्ते कपूयां योनिमापद्येरञ्श्वयोनिं वा सूकरयोनिं वा चण्डालयोनिं वा ।। 5.10.7 ।।
"Those whose conduct here on earth has been good will quickly attain some good birth-birth as a brahmin, birth as a ksatriya, or birth as a vaisya. But those whose conduct here has been evil will quickly attain some evil birth, birth, as a dog, birth as a pig, or birth as a chandala. [ Chandogya Upanishads 5.10.7 ]
Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur writes in Jaiva dharma;
“Birth is the prominent factor in ascertaining a person’s nature, and in other cases association is the primary factor. Nature is formed by association, which begins from birth, so birth is certainly one cause that determines the development of nature.”
[ Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur, Jaiva Dharma page 113 ]
Sri Ramanujacarya writes in his commentary to Gita Bhasyam ( Bhagavad Gita ) verse 18.41
" The character of Brāhmaṇas, Kṣatriyas, Vaishyas, and Śūdras arise from their various inherent dispositions. In other words their past Karma is the cause of their being born in a specific social group."
Srila Visvanath Cakaravati Thakur gave a clear commentary on SB 7.11.35 -
"If brahminical qualities are found in a person of another order, he should be respected as a brahmana, but he cannot claim to be a brahmana, as the Lord clearly states (in BG 18.47) 'to follow another's duty even perfectly is more dangerous than following one's own imperfectly'"
So from the above quotations I’ve cited, it is clear that birth is a major factor and a non-brahmana cannot claim to be a brahmana even if he has qualities, through he should be respected as a brahmana.
Viswanath Chakaravati Thakur also writes in his Bhakti-sāra-pradarśinī on BRS 1.1.22 as follows
ReplyDelete"yogyatvam atra yāga adhikāritva svarūpam eva, na ca tādṛśa śvapacasya yāga-adhikāratve sa katham yogaṁ na karoti iti vācyam"
"A low-born out-caste, when initiated, becomes like a purified person, but this does not mean he is able to perform purificatory ceremonies such as initiation or deity installation etc."
Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur writes in Harinam Cintamani
“ A brahmana is fit to be a spiritual master for all the other varnas or social orders as long as he is a devotee of Lord Krsna. But if a brahmana spiritual master is not available then a spiritual master from another varna should be searched out. If there is a choice, the householder would be best advised to accept initiation from a spiritual master in the brahmana-varna."
In his commentaries Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura proves the point that the learned Brahmana should be accepted as Guru thus:
Sri Hari-bhakti-vilase uccharane yogya-purusa thakete, hina-varna
vyaktira nikata haite krsna-mantra loya ucita naya - erupa ye katha acche,
“When it is mentioned in the Hari Bhakti-vilasa, if there is a fit person of a high caste present, it is improper to accept Krsna-mantra from a person from a lower caste born Guru...”
A western person is not even classified within the 4 Varnas/caste. He is considered as a outcaste, what to speak of such personality taking up the position of Guru and initiating people from traditional families. This is not proper.
Hari Bhakti Vilas composed by Sanatana Goswami and Gopal Bhatta Goswami wrote;
"A person who accepts a spiritual master from a lower caste meets destruction in this life and the next. Therefore one should follow this instruction of the scriptures. A ksatriya, vaisya, or sudra should not give initiation to a person of higher caste." (H.B.V 1.52)
Let it be known that outside iskcon, no sampradya, no Gaudiya mutt accepts iskcon’s version of Guru tattva. Hence to make a blanket statement that there is no brahmana of proper lineage existing is just sheer ignorance on your part. Please seek the presiding acaryas of the various sampradyas and confirm if what I’ve written is wrong instead of living within the well like a frog trying to describe an ocean without seeing it. Thank you.
Hare Krishna.
ReplyDeleteDear S.Kumar,
I have just seen you have commented. Thank you for that. I shall be reading and pondering over them in a few days, as my health has gone down from yesterday and also at our varnasrama project (in Gujarat) we have a 3 day ceremony. [you are welcome to visit here sometimes and experience simple living, high thinking].
I will start answering this then, which will be not before 22 Nov 2021.
Hope this meets you in good health.
Hari Guru Vaisnava das,
damodara das
Controversially Making Westerners Brahmanas
ReplyDeletehttps://youtu.be/iwLMN5Dhc5Y
Mlecchas Guru
https://youtu.be/QIvBY0MUHgE
Hari Bhakti Vilasa On Qualifications Of A Guru
ReplyDeletehttps://youtu.be/cA0ruCjSVAQ
Haribol.
ReplyDeleteDear S. Kumar,
Somehow I could get today to come to your comments and read.
First of all, I would like to again stress that you make your identity clear so that I can understand what all authorities you accept. You are quoting BVT, VCT, etc. To prepare my answer I need to know your clear identity because if I quote someone then if that thing goes against your speculation, you just reject it.
So let us go step by step. My identity is crystal clear: I am a disciple of H H Bhakti Vikasa Swami, who is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada (ISKCON's founder-acarya) and so on. However, you are anonymus (even in commenting). Just saying that you are a Gaudiya Vaisnava keeps you anonymus. Please make your disciplic succession along with your name and photographs, clear.
In the next comment, I will answer your points in summary but you are still to refute this article point by point. However, until you clarify your identity, your comments or replies won't be considered for discussion -- I do not want to waste my time discussin with some arrogant cloud.
Thank you.
Hari Guru Vaisnava das,
damodara das
Reply no.1 to S.Kumar
ReplyDelete======================
By Srila Bhaktisidhhanta Sarasvati Thakura (not me)
=====================
(Chaitanya Bhagavata 1.8.7, purport)
Regarding the words yajñopavītera kāla, it is stated in the Vedas: aṣṭa-varṣaṁ brāhmaṇam upanayīta—“When the son of a brāhmaṇa becomes eight years old, he should be awarded the sacred thread.” In this statement the word brāhmaṇa refers to those who will become brāhmaṇas in the future. The Śrīmad Bhāgavatam (11.17.39) statement: gṛhārthī sadṛśīṁ bhāryām udvahet—“One who desires to establish family life should marry a wife of his own caste,” refers to those who will accept wives in the future, and in the same way a non-brāhmaṇa who will become a brāhmaṇa in the future is called a brāhmaṇa.
In the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam (7.11.13) it is stated: saṁskārā yatrāvicchinnāḥ sa dvijo ’jo jagāda yam—“Those who have been reformed by the garbhādhāna ceremony and other prescribed reformatory methods, performed with Vedic mantras and without interruption, and who have been approved by Lord Brahmā, are dvijas, or twice-born.”
In the Viṣṇu Yāmala it is stated:
aśuddhāḥ śūdra-kalpā hi brāhmaṇaḥ kali-sambhavāḥ
teṣām āgama-mārgeṇa śuddhir na śrota-vartmanā
“The brāhmaṇas born in the Age of Kali are merely śūdras. Their so-called Vedic path of karma is polluted and cannot purify them. They can only be purified by following the path of the āgamas or pāñcarātrika-viddhi.”
From this statement it is understood that due to the lack of purity in family lines in the Age of Kali, or quarrel, one should become purified through the process of pāñcarātrika initiation. Therefore the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam (7.11.35) states:
yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam
yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet
“If one shows the symptoms of being a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification.”
And Śrīdhara Svāmī in his commentary on this verse states: yad yadi anyatra varṇāntare ’pi dṛśyeta, tad-varṇāntaraṁ tenaiva lakṣaṇa-nimittenaiva varṇena vinirdiśet, na tu jāti-nimittenety arthaḥ.—“If the proper symptoms are seen in persons other than those born as brāhmaṇas, then such persons should be considered brāhmaṇas. They should not be considered according to their caste by birth.”
The Mahābhārata (Anuśāsana 143.46 and 50) states:
śūdro ’py āgama sampanno dvijo bhavati saṁskṛtaḥ
“Persons born in lower, degraded castes can become qualified well-versed brāhmaṇas.”
na yonir nāpi saṁskāro na śrutaṁ na ca santatiḥ
kāraṇāni dvijatvasya vṛttam eva tu kāraṇam
“Therefore, neither the source of one’s birth, nor his reformation, nor his education is the criterion of a brāhmaṇa. The vṛtta is the real standard by which one is known as a brāhmaṇa.”
In the Bhāradvāja-saṁhitā of the Nārada Pañcarātra (2.34) it is stated:
svayaṁ brahmaṇi nikṣiptān jātān eva hi mantrataḥ
vinītān-artha putrādīn saṁskṛtya prati-bodhayet
“An ācārya should purify his sons and disciples by engaging them in the service of the Absolute Truth after initiating them with proper mantras so that they will be purified and knowledgable.”
The Hari-bhakti-vilāsa (Part 2) quotes the Tattva-sāgara as follows:
yathā kāñcanatāṁ yāti kāṁsyaṁ rasa-vidhānataḥ
tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena dvijatvaṁ jāyate nṛṇām
“As bell metal, when mixed with mercury, is transformed to gold, a person, even though not golden pure, can be transformed into a brāhmaṇa, or dvija, simply by the initiation process.” (Hari-bhakti-vilāsa 2.12)
In his commentary on this verse, Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī has written: nṛṇāṁ sarveṣām eva, dvijatvaṁ vipratā—“All human beings are eligible to become twice-born brāhmaṇas.”
NOTE that the above comment is from SBSST, in full. None of the words in above comment are mine. Damodara Das
ReplyDeleteMore to come...
ReplyDelete....
....
....
Hare Krishna.
ReplyDeleteI would also like to bring to notice of all interested including S.Kumar that the topic that S.Kumar is trying to enter into or is facing, is already thoroughly established by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who both established that brahmana etc. is by qualities and not by birth and thus smashed the then puffed brahmin by birth minded oppressive brahmins.
A conference was held on 8 Sep 1911 at Balighai, Midnapone, wherein SBSST spoke for 3 days and established that brahmin is not by birth but by qualities and that a vaisnava born in any family can initiate.
The link to a book of the SBSST speech in that conference is http://f42013k2.bget.ru/brahmana-and-vaisnava.pdf. I request everyone to read this thoroughly.
This was a huge conference in past and things have already established by our sampradaya acaryas. Our own Srila Prabhupada is just following in the footsteps and thus ISKCON is bonafide. Actually speaking we do not just need to establish things that already have been established.
So I would expect that S.Kumar first reads the whole and defeat it point by point, not just haphazardously quoting out of his mind something and imagine that he has refuted it.
Haribol S. Kumar.
ReplyDeleteYou are persistently hiding your identity. I asked you to first clarify your identity. Please see my comments reply above. Until then no discussion is to go forward. Why are you afraid to reveal your identity?
I am putting your comments here on HOLD, and will publish them back as soon as you have properly revealed your identity. Then I will answer your points also.
Reasons for a need for identity to be clear are mentioned in my previous comments.
Thank you,
Hari Guru Vaisnava das,
damodara das